Why the communists and fundamentalist Muslims seem to be buddies

Bush’s visit to India was not the first instance of the communists and the fundamentalist Muslims gathering under the same umbrella to protest against both the visit and the nuclear deal. Both entities thrive on poverty, illiteracy and religious and cultural backwardness. Without these factors, these two ideologies cannot survive.

I don’t mean to imply that America is the harbinger of peace and prosperity for India. It has its own chapattis to bake. All over the world America has messed up the environment, indigenous economies, regimes and local norms. America’s on record of racial discrimination is not something they can boast about. The entire world knows how diabolically they have treated their African-American citizens. Press in Pakistan might be freer than the American press.

But sadly for the communists, America also represents progress, affluence, an opening to new ideas, and more glaringly, America represents the failure of communism by following exactly the opposite policies the communists espouse. And this is where the parallel lies between the Muslim fundamentalists and the communists. Both these ideologies think they are very superior compared to the rest of the world. Both think their ideologies cannot be questioned or altered. Both are authoritarian and totalitarian. And both, to their great chagrin, see people of the opposing ideologies living much better lives. They are confused, they are befuddled, and, alarmingly, they are frustrated. The only option they have is, maintain the status quo.

Hungry, poor, backward people are the ideal breeding grounds for the communists and Muslim fundamentalists. They want to keep people half-fed, semi-healthy and semi-clothed so that they are always resentful. Since on their own they cannot express their resentments, they need eloquent representatives. And there are no prizes for guessing who want to be their representatives.

39 thoughts on “Why the communists and fundamentalist Muslims seem to be buddies

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  2. Richa

    Nice observation Amrit. I fail to understand how they can pretend to be advocates of the people they constantly step on.

  3. Anirudh

    This unfortunately is another post that assumes that only communists protested. And just because some communists are stupid calls all of them bad.

    Amrit, your posts are usually sensible. I wish you would support what you say with something other than two or three sentences.

  4. Amrit Post author

    Anirudh, I totally agree with you that not all communists are bad and they weren’t the only ones who protested. I think Bush himself represents a very heinous aspect of capitalism. I also agree that capitalists and fundamentalists become great pals when economic gain is to be made. But it seems whenever the communists open their mouths they have to say something against development. If they were so nice, why West Bengal lags so far behind? If their intentions were noble, why the Soviet Union collapsed and why the present Russia has been pushed into a long, misty winter of despondency and lawlessness? We all know what a monster Ceausescu turned out to be. Which developed country has a better standard of living by being communist?

    I think currently communism represents misguided and lazy people who do not want to fight for merit. They want job security without having to work. They want equal distribution of wealth whether one works for it or not. The intentions might have been noble in the beginning, but now things seem nothing but twisted.

  5. ankan

    Both these ideologies think they are very superior compared to the rest of the world. Both think their ideologies cannot be questioned or altered. Both are authoritarian and totalitarian. And both, to their great chagrin, see people of the opposing ideologies living much better lives. They are confused, they are befuddled, and, alarmingly, they are frustrated. The only option they have is, maintain the status quo.

    very well put.

  6. Art

    What happened to the commies in Iran after the Islamic revolution? They were shot on the streets like dogs? …. Here is another fact about commies – In 2005, China lost hundreds (some say thousands) of coal miners. Why wasn’t there a single strike? FYI, US lost 22 lives in the mines and the entire nation shared the grief of the bereaved families.

  7. zhivago

    i cant comment on your opinion on communism, as i see it as sensible but on fundamental muslisms i think you speak hastly. i dont believe any fundamentalist, a bad fundamentalist, as fundamentalism is not always a bad thing, is created overnight. so most “fundamentalist muslisms”, that i think most of the world seems to hate arent at all preaching hate and kill everyone thats not a muslim (that seem more like fundamentalist hindu talk). instead these so called fundamentalist muslism are the residue of an unfair western, captilistic, industiral imperliastistic global change and vision that is being forced on a people who traditionally have lived fine without democracy and other western ideologies and were once one of the greatest civilizations of the world.

    historically musilm rule has been very tolerant (much more than hindu regimes who isolate their own people) of other religions especially in the middle east where the three abrahamic religions lived peacefully for centuries. things for muslims messed up with the decline of the ottoman empire. i have met many muslims, and i can tell you they are not anti-democracy, or anti-modernity or anti-technolgy but they are anti-western ideology. and i think lots of people can be and are anti-west. muslims don’t change their identity for the sake of the white man. i kinda admire them for that. i think indian ppl crave so much for white skin, white accents, white or western modern life that they have raped themselves of their own cultural pride and thus easily criticize other cultures who want to preserve their tradional way of life while selectively choosing certain aspects of the current dominant global cutlure and protesting a nation who is soley responsible for so much global destruction.

    im not saying they cant be more tolerant…ofcourse they can..but when will the west hindus, start being just to them? in india, an indian muslim is a muslim before he is an indian, atleast when a genocide is being planned. no community wants to be in isolation, but accepts isolation as it is forced upon it. and india has great history doing that.

    i think the uppercaste hindu is the oldest totalitarian and authoritarian in the history of man kind. he is also continues to be the most backward, selfish, frutrated, scared, and evil individual in the world as he continues to practice the laws of manu and thousands of years old bull crap all in the name of religion.

    let’s see a protest by hindus against the caste system? let’s see any pro-egalitarian prtoest?
    and we want to jump on muslims? many ppl were freed from uppercaste propaganda thanks to a fundamentally, internally egalitarian religion like islam.

  8. Amrit Post author

    Zhivago, although I’m not in favor of judging communities hastily, and I agree with your general view on the genocidal tendencies of a few Hindu regimes (for instance, in Gujarat and in other BJP-ruled states) they are not worse than historic Muslim rulers. Being a Sikh, I know Sikhs were born to counter the Muslim atrocities in India. Muslim rulers in India have orchestrated the worst transgression upon the non-Muslim citizens of India when they’ve ruled. The Muslims only thrive and are only “peaceful” when they are the rulers (hence your Middle-east reference). Wherever they are in a minority, they have a problem: they’re always been victimized or targeted or blasphemed against. A. Roy is a good writer, but her sense of right and wrong is totally screwed up, at least at the moment.

    Hinduism is one of the most peaceful religions of the world. Just as the fundamentalists have hijacked the Islamic ideology, the Manu-centric Brahminical (like the Nazis) fundamentalists hijacked the Hindu ideology. Hindu religion by nature nurtures universal peace and brotherhood and respects all the religions, unlike Islam that treats every other faith as a bunch of infidels. I think Muslims are one of the smartest religious communities in the world: at their own convenience, within seconds they can turn from barbaric aggressors to hapless victims.

    I’m not here for Muslim bashing and eulogizing Hinduism, but tragically, historical facts have been twisted for political reason. Most of the history we read is a drastically toned-down version of the real history. If we want to see a better world, we have to see it in its real perspective.

    many ppl were freed from uppercaste propaganda thanks to a fundamentally, internally egalitarian religion like islam.

    Frankly, this is hilarious.

  9. zhivago

    hey amrit, im glad you see atleast one religion as truly, fundamentally great and i can see why. hindusims is very tolerant of other religions because usually it ends up swolling them, at least the ones born in india. whether jainism, buddhism, or sikhism. buddha was kicked out by shankarachariya, and respecting the cow was very much a budhist ideology, in the vedas sacrificing animals and then eating them as prasad? was a very common ritual. there was never, is really no such thing as a hindu religion, before the aryans, there was tribes worshipping various gods, as in the south shivaites worshiped only shiva. it wasnt till after the arrival of the aryans that a system of brahmincal beliefs started, hence the caste system, which was actually never mentioned in first books of vedas but towards the last. krishna in the bhagwata clealy exprsses his support of the castes system. mahabharta…if you read it…or watch it is a story of sex and violence which orginally was much shorter but expanded over the years to fit bhramanical ideolgies and there are parts in it that actually talk negative of krishna. further, historically tolerant u say is hinduism….hinduism equals brahminism, they created the religion, the various practices one may find across india are the local traditions which predate brahminism/hinduism.

    further, i think most sikhs would be deeply offended if you told them “they were created to counter the muslim atrocities” ofcourse this is something they did, but wheather they were only created for this…i dont think a non-practicng sikh can really know the true purpose of the only monotheistic religon of the east. further, i doubt you have had the chance to read any true history about hindusim or sikhism as indian text books are closer to fiction than history, i think sikhs currently are enraged about hindu distortion of their complete history as in one book being given in chandigarh? is labeling their prophets as thiefs, sexually pumped, politically selfish…and other things of sort. and this is not the first time they have faced such abuse, same was writen by a hindu writer in 1984. further, today sikhs continue to fight for a serperate distinct identity…there marriages are still classified as hindu marriage, in article 25 of the indian consitution they are classified as the martial sect of Hinduism. maybe you agree with this…but last time i checked Sikhism’s fundamental teachings go against Hinduism. rejection of caste, idol worshipping, rituals, superstitions, and above all it believes in a single, colorless, formless God, that has no gender and never took any form on earth. really it rejects almost all of hinduism, it fought not only for hindu rights but for human rights. u see, whatever has happned to the sikhs has always happened with the help of the brahmins or local elite hindus. The youngest two sons of Guru Gobindh Singh were put to death due soley because gangu, a brahmin informed Aurganzheb of their stay at his house. Furthermore, Guru Nanak was the first Sikh prophet to say the Hindu is blind and muslim half blind. but hindus continue to label sikhs as hindus…and sikhs really seem to take that as an insult, as in punjab if ones first glance of the the start of the day is that of a brahmin it is believed your whole is ruined.
    have you noticed how in india when a sikh does something good he is an Indian and when somethign bad happens the whole nation remembers him as Sardar/Sikh. weird how things work.

    i can see a religion being tolerant in usually some sense usually to its ppl, other religions, but hinduism has proven itself incapable of any of that. i mean internally… it is historically…hmm evil. and we dont need to share more of what is going on today. u see if you take away the caste system..hinduism cant surive, atleast brahminism…and if there is no brahmin there is no hindu. by the way..the history of the word “hindu” is interesting…i read it comes from a persian word..meaning thief and hinduism comes from the brits, so there was no such thing ever?

    i wish indians had access to more accurate history, before the birth of the Sikh faith, india was invaded/raped and there was no real defense. not until the sikh were they able to kick out the moguls, set up their empire until the brits, and after the arrival of the brits..well statistics will show you that no other community has given more for india than the Sikh all while being only about 2% of the population. i think this is a good site…from as sikh perspective http://www.neverforget84.com to learn what sikh just recently went thru in a nation which holds the most “tolerant” religon. and i wonder how hindus have thanked their sikhs brothers and sisters? really a sad story of the sikhs, especially looking at the current situation of punjab.

    oh..im not sure if you read any of romila thapar’s works. but she argues very well that most ppl of india became muslim not thru force but by choice. whatever muslims are doing in india…i wish dalits would follow in their footsteps and dare to have some dignity and demand their rights.

  10. Amrit Post author

    oh..im not sure if you read any of romila thapar’s works. but she argues very well that most ppl of india became muslim not thru force but by choice. whatever muslims are doing in india…i wish dalits would follow in their footsteps and dare to have some dignity and demand their rights.

    Oh! Well, now I know where you are coming from. Please, if you really want to know Indian history, don’t read Romila Thapar. She’s one of the worst historians the world has ever seen. Nobody twists the history the way her ilk does. I’m serious.

    I’m trying to get hold of a book by Arun Shourie (Eminent Historians, Their Technology, Their Line, Their Fraud) in which has proved how such historians and intellectuals have totally skewed the world-view.

    Furthermore, Guru Nanak was the first Sikh prophet to say the Hindu is blind and muslim half blind.

    Guru Nanak was not a “Sikh” prophet, he was a Sufi saint. Sikhism didn’t exist at that time. True Sikhism originated when Guru Gobind Sikh established the Khalsa Panth at Anandpur Sahib, and it was mostly to fight against Aurangzeb. He saw a Muslim half-blind and a Hindu blind because at that time most sufis were Muslims and most backward practices were being practiced by the Hindus. By the way, Guru Nanak was a Hindu.

    have you noticed how in india when a sikh does something good he is an Indian and when somethign bad happens the whole nation remembers him as Sardar/Sikh. weird how things work.

    Sadly, I cannot deny this. This happens more often than not.

    i wish indians had access to more accurate history, before the birth of the Sikh faith, india was invaded/raped and there was no real defense.

    I agree here too, but most of such atrocities happened due to Muslim invasions.

    from as sikh perspective http://www.neverforget84.com to learn what sikh just recently went thru in a nation which holds the most “tolerant??? religon. and i wonder how hindus have thanked their sikhs brothers and sisters? really a sad story of the sikhs

    And most of it happened at the behest of the “secular” Congress. Zhivago, I was witness to the whole thing — read it here — and unlike the Guajarat riots where neighbors killed neighbors, most of the riotors in 1984 for “sponsored” and transported to various locations.

    I agree that the Hindu community hasn’t given the Sikhs their rightful due.

    there was never, is really no such thing as a hindu religion, before the aryans, there was tribes worshipping various gods, as in the south shivaites worshiped only shiva.

    Fundamentally, Hinduism is not a religion, it is a way of life. The entire Aryan theory is disputable — some say it was born in the early 19th century.

    With all its faults and aberrations, I still say the world is not threatened by Hinduism as it is by Islam. Tell me in which country or regions (apart from their own medieval countries) they are happy and actively get involved with the native communities. It is the most violent religion existing (I’m not saying the only violent religion existing). Compared to them, wherever Hindus and Sikhs grow, they not only prosper, they also give back to the community as much as possible. I think the main problem with Muslims is, they don’t value life. Once they start respecting life, they’ll have less problem with the world around them.

    I’m not saying Hinduism is a religion of angels, but as I mentioned in a previous comment, reality cannot go tangent to true solutions. It’s very easy to see “victims” and feel like espousing a “cause”, but unless there is internal catharsis, one just ends up beating around the bush.

  11. zhivago

    hi amrit…i wrote a lot in my last comment and it was very late or early i should say…thus do excuse the more than the usual grammar errors.

    romila thapar is a controversial scholar for many indians, particulary those holding the some of the hinduvta ideologies, as she is accused of taking the sides of the colonial west. however, it seems that, even from the traffic on your blog, that indians cant handle any variety of criticism of their culture, history and vehemently deny any wrongdoings of their ppl/religion/culture or any righteous actions by the muslims or the various other invaders. i like the lady because she is one of very few who takes her work not as service to the hinduism but to history of mankind. arun shourie, havent read his works, but im sure he is one of the many denying any concrete analysis of indian history, or atleast those that go against the hinduvta ideology. but ill have a look.

    u see, even in the west, i say this from personal experience, scholars find that indian thinkers, writers, professors, tend to only do work that is colored with patriotism. i remember once at my universtiy a visiting indian scholar had asked us to write on how india is such a great democracy and why is it so, the whole class (except the few rss supporting upper caste hindus) had a great laugh and one student said “now we have to join them”. it was odd, after having taught the class on indian politics, the professor expected us to write on such a topic? i just think real progess for india cant occur until it is able to handle criticism and criticize itself.

    if you can believe that Guru Nanak was the product of the bhakti movemtent and understand him to be a sufi saint, than i suggest you also find new reading material. firstly, he was born into a hindu family, but he rejected from an early age all hindu practices, including some islamic. how could he be a sufi saint? that is a sect of islam. further, Guru Nanak was like no other individual from the bhakti movement, as he endorsed family life, marriage, commitment to everyday worldy affairs,all of which were considere maya or illusion by other bhakti saints. further most of the Sikh Holy book contains only about 15% of the works of bhakti saints, everything uses the name of “Nanak” within the poetry (?).

    furthermore, Guru Nanak set up new communities and founded the city of Kartarpur, no other bhakti saint is known to have done that. individuals converting to the teachings of Guru Nanak came to him, learned about Gurbani, Naam, and actually took a baptisim, which included drinking the water used to wash his chran?, feet. so baptisim was always there. a new way of life was introduced and thats why as the proceeding Gurus, all are considered by the Sikhs to be one light, of Guru Nanak…thus in all of their writings they all use “Nanak”.

    so im not sure what you meant by “true sikhism”. for the believer and the sikh historian, sikhism was true from the birth of the first Guru. thus the word of the Gurus is timeless, universal and not only specific to their time period, thats why dates are not mentioned in their Holy book, which is actully the only Guru or “thing” they are supposed to bow since it is the Word of God to them.

    khalsa panth and why it was established, cant again be understood by any non-practicing sikh or non-sikh historian. becasue it requires one to have both spirtual and hisotrical accuracy and commitmment. Guru Gobindh Singh, proved on day of the khalsa creatino that only a few will remain true to the path, and made such a people that would always remain differnt from the oppresing forces, anti-God forces…this includes the muslims rulers of the time and the idol worshiping hindus. Khalsa panth was an extention of what already existed, it added to the already exisisting sant-siphai ideology. thus to a claim that a whole relgion was created to fight a certain regime…is a little far fetched and biased. atleast the followers and scholars of the religion would think so. further, if that was only its purpose i think it would have be annhilated long time ago, maybe it will be in the future…seems like it looking at what the RSS is so actively doing in punjab.

    aryan theory is controversial. but in india some believe the arayans never even arrived…this is frankly ridiculous (to borrow your words). any resonable research proves this wrong, whether it was an invasion or a peaceful integration…we cant say…but if you look at how india is currently, we can see that most lighter skin individuals happen to be upper castes. ofcourse we get some light skinned dalits, but hey we have light skinned african americans…products of rape by their white masters. also their are countless paralles between the vedic and zorastrian traditions, hinting a clear interactions of some sort between aryans and indigenous indians, whether it was that of slave and master or brother and brother, is disputable.

    i do believe hinduism is not a religion, i believe it is as political/social/cultural umberlla forced upon the diverse religious tradition of india, which were doing fine before the the brahmin caste system was integrated into their religious identity.

    most invasions in india were not only by muslims but also by alexander, persians, egyptians, huns, etc. and further i believe islam is much younger than vedic traditions, even if we count all of the atrocities commited against hindus by muslims, i dont think they will equal the thousands of years old tradition of the caste system, and countless known and unknow genocides commited against lower castes and untouchables in india, and also the buddhists, jains and recently the Sikhs and christians.

    so when was hinduism or the way of life that existed before it, ever tolerant?

    i agree with you the world is not threatened by hinduism as by fundamentalist islam, this is because the leader/scholars of hinduism who are mostly upper caste are too busy hiding the ills of their religion/socitey. and i dont think hinduism was or every will be morally competant enough to unite itself, and thus becoming an internationl threat is out of the question.

    i agree with you with ppl beating around the bush..i just feel that many enjoy a society, a world. while injustices continue in front of their eyes but have become so immune to the reality that all they can do is use words to express the little grief they carry, but i guess it is better than justifying the ills as karama.

    i wonder if there is any society today, in which an age old tradition founded on a relgious ideology is still vehemently practiced not only by its followers but also by the victims and by the supposed protectors of that society.

    can u dig it? lol

  12. Amrit Post author

    OK Zhivago, you impress me :-). My main interest here is not defending a religion because religions don’t interest me (but people do). I also recognize my reading lacks the required punch. I’m trying to fill the gap.

    I don’t agree with your views on Islam and Hinduism, but I do agree that terrorism stems from myriad factors, including western policies. I also agree that Hinduism brims with evil traditions but being in India, I have also witnessed the like-able facets of it.

  13. Alka

    Since when Romilla Thapar attained credibility? Maybe when the whole world was requesting Talibans in Afghanistan, not to blow up Bamiyan Buddha, but she alleyed everyone’s fear to rest by saying those were not Bamiyan Buddha’s statues at all!!!! Even though by any logic those were not, what was the reason to blow them up? Such ancient monuments? She is truly secular and TRUE Gandhian, who sees, hears and speaks no evils until its something related with Hinduism.

  14. Alka

    “Guru Nanak was like no other individual from the bhakti movement, as he endorsed family life, marriage, commitment to everyday worldy affairs,all of which were considere maya or illusion by other bhakti saints.”

    All the Bhakti saints endorsed family life, marriage, children etc. etc. ect. And MOST of them were from LOWER CATSE, be it Saint Tukaram, Namdev or Kabir Das

    Ramananda, though from upper caste, initiated Kabir Das. Though, at first, Ramananda refused to initiate Kabir, he ultimately succumbed to Kabir?s persistence.
    And every Bhakti Saint preached in regional language, refusing to adopt sanskrit.And they were ultimately respected by all, including Brahmans!!

  15. zhivago

    hi amrit, i am humbled to have impressed you 🙂

    im glad ppl and not religions interest you. with me, people dont interest me but ideas. ideas form insitutions and practices that serve humanity either to its advantage or to its demise.

    i suppose if i was enorlled in the nazi regime, i could also find “like-able facets” in it as well. thus i can see your impression of your hindu society.

    oh just a side note…i always wondered how it feels to be called hindustani when you are sikh, muslim,christian and how does that title parallel with democracy?

    its been interesting

  16. Amrit Post author

    oh just a side note?i always wondered how it feels to be called hindustani when you are sikh, muslim,christian and how does that title parallel with democracy?

    I have no problem with being called a Hindustani because no matter how the term is interpreted by different languages, I like being an Indian and I’m fascinated by the fact that our culture goes back to 1000s of years. Although in these times it hardly matters how old it is, but this is something I like about it.

    I’m not a devout Sikh, I wouldn’t have been a devout Muslim or a devout Hindu…or devout something else because I’m always questioning perceptions. I find religious identities very constraining.

  17. zhivago

    alka, thank you for reflecting once again, exactly what i was trying aruge throughout my comments.
    you have chosen probably the most irrlevant parts of my bigger argument. but since you asked…

    i dont care what romila thapar said about a demolition. from what i have read and experienced, she is much better than the text books provided in indian schools that are run by fascist hindus. next thing i dont care if she is secular, and/or gandhian…in any case i only like ppl or things that are anti gandhi, although im not clear on her position about him. as i have mentioned in my earlier posts he is hated by almost all dalits, for he is the sole reason they are weak politically. he is also hated im the north by mostly sikhs and some hindus. he was a british agent..and please dont ask me to educate you on this as it should be your own attempt. further, im sure you read his autobiography, he was more randy than my neighbors dog, who humps anything that comes his way. lol u know gandhi used to sleep with young girls, naked all in the experience to test his sexuality. hmm…i wonder wat the girls were testing? he went on hunger strike all in a effort to stop dalits from ever being able to elect their own leaders, and gandhi succeded. ambedkar backed off from getting the act included in the draft indian consitution, and regretted this till his last breath.
    and by the way he was the one labeling dalits harijan…why god’s ppl, why not ppl who are equal to the brahmin…why not “our ppl” …anythign but god’s ppl??

    back to romila..she is respected not only by western scholars, where she recieved on the highest award possible, i think it is the us library of congress gaver her a award, very high and tough achievement, further your own govt was giving her a state award which she declined atleast on two occasions. so im not sure what more do u want in terms of her recognizition…only ppl speaking against her are angry hinduvta nazis.
    further, i dont think you are accurate about your statments about the saints, as all did not support family life, and did not practice it. yes they were from lower castes, but so whats your point? they rejected hinduism, and so wat if ramanada intiated kabir? im not completely sure wat you are trying to say, but i think it is exactly what i have been trying to prove to amrit.

    ofcourse saints were respected by all, not by all brahmins by a very few, and this was only usually after the death of certain saints. if you read more, u will find, atleast in the sikh tradition, of how brahmins attacked, opposed some of the saints. further if brahmins did respect them, i dont see them following in their footsteps, i think your society speaks clearly of what im saying.

    i think saints preached in their regional language because they were simple (respectually), if one considers them divine then it could be said that they could have preached in sanskrit, but again who cares? the saints rejected the fundamentals of hinduism. they preached and believed in a single God, saint farid, kabir, namdev, from what i have read are clearly against idols, caste, brahmincal ideologies and soley focus on surrendering to the one single, formless God. The Sikh Guru, as my point was, was the intentional intiator of a distinct religion, which rejects brahmincal ideolgies. i think if you disagree with this, than i suppose i can devote a few more emails in attempts prove you wrong, but the details you are concerned about seem so irrlevant as i would have much appreciated a response concerning the dalits or current situation of minorities under a nation that is controlled by fascists. but i am not hurt, as your reaction is the norm from what i have experienced. it is sad thought that you have completely missed the thrust of my comments and chose to focus on what you did.

    i am not diggin this lol

    oh…now that i think about it…i would have enjoyed your response or seen some sort of human spirit in it, if it had even slightly touched on the other issues i mention concerning dalits/minorites.

    jai hind!

  18. zhivago

    hey amrit, im glad you like india and its long history, but i guess every nations history of its ppl is long? i guess being aged gets appreciation, even if the aged entity has commited the worst crimes against humanity. well im glad you find peace in your life, again i hope the same peace can be one day acheived by dalits and other minorites who too will be able to, but most likely will not, look at their country with admiration.

    you dont mind being called hindustani, i guess because you were able to chose another identity or no identity at all becasue of various factors, but those who are not so fortunate and have only their non-hindu identies deserve at the least to be able to hold on to it with some dignity and pride and still feel like indians. besides before being hindustani, they were indianstani or pplstani (trying to be witty there lol) ok time for bed…i think i should move to india so this time difference wouldnt exist…naa…i couldnt bare to live luxoriously while a dalit child begs me for money…or when there is a genocide i could possibly be the next victim. anyways goodnite

  19. Amrit Post author

    Hmmm….Zhivago, it seems, unfortunately, you’ve been wasting your time reading all the wrong texts and befriending wrong people who have no values and no sense of right and wrong. I think you should visit India as from a distant land you can only form “educated opinions” and nothing else. I’ve heard about the “randiness” of Gandhi, but it is mostly perpetuated by people too scared to acknowledge his power. FYI, die-hard Hindus hate Gandhi, and it was a Hindu who eventually killed him. By the way, even if he had sex with young girls, his greatness doesn’t diminish in my eyes.

    Again, regarding R. Thapar, she craves to please certain sections of the society, and that’s why she accepts/rejects rewards. I couldn’t care less who rewards her (even the Nobel prizes are sometimes manipulated) in my eyes she remains a lousy historian with vested interests.

    I wonder what/who gives you the notion (the paranoid A. Roy, by the way?) that India is governed by a fascist government. The most free media in the world today exists in India. The most prosper Muslims in the world you find in India (in other countries they just have oil and they are going to run out of it soon). It is one of the fastest growing economies despite the psychos like Narender Modi and Arjun Singh. The women are unsafe, sure, but a lot freer than many countries. Regarding the dalit problem, as I’ve written earlier too, reservation is nothing but cheap politics and misguided idealism.

    The thing is, if we open the old books and start settling historic accounts then we may have to settle many more accounts (for example, with Muslims). I agree that most who vociferously protest against reservations are upper caste Hindus, but it doesn’t make dalits right and them wrong. Yes, if the Indians are so worried about equality, then they should certainly fight for universal equality, not selective equality.

    Coming back again to Hinduism, I don’t wish to change your views because gradually, it seems they are not your views, but some guided, purposeful opinions, so there is no use going in a cycle.

  20. zhivago

    hey amrit…

    it is important to clarify the following: in a previous post I had written that it was Guru Nanak who said ?hindu is blind and muslim half blind?. I was wrong. Amrit, you corrected me by explaining it was Guru Gobind Singh. You were wrong. What is right? It was actually bhagat Namdev, a lower caste hindu saint, who had said those words, which are found in the Sikh Holy Scripture.

    Ok..with that said, moving on?

    Yes amrit without visiting a country or its people, opinions are just that. I can say humbly my international travel has only been limited to Russia, Saudia Arabia, Germany, Enlgand, and also India. I lived in India for about 8 years, recently I have visited in 2002, 2003, 2004. I am very familiar with Delhi, haryana, and Punjab. Most of my recent visits have been in delhi (lajpat nagar, niti baag, badarpur, connaught place, kalkaji?, friends colony etc.)

    As far as forming ?educated opinions? I think your opinion of Gandhi can?t even be classified as such, since you are unaware that his experiments with sex are clearly recorded in his autobiography. In my previous posts I have listed enough reasons to dislike Gandhi, and I thought maybe it would spark at the least an interest in a smart man like you, but I was wrong.

    You said ?By the way, even if he had sex with young girls, his greatness doesn?t diminish in my eyes.?

    Well there is nothing I can say or you can read, to change your opinion of man that you admire even as a child molestor. However this does encourage me to point out some inherent contradictions I found on your blog.

    I read your list of things you hate the most, at the very end of the list was any person who commits crimes against women and children. Hmm?yet you seem to overlook this value, when it comes your Gandhi.
    Further you talk negatively of salman khan and how he and others like him have been turned into almost immortal entities and are shown support even when they are animal murderers and women beaters. Well your blind faith in Gandhi flows the same the way.

    Secondly, you claim throughout your blog you want hindu society to create a natural, genuine upliftment of dalits, not one based on a superficial quota system, but you continue to ignore what the upper caste leaders such as Gandhi, have historically created is the sole reason they are in their current situation. Should ppl like him be admired? Well I can?t answer that but they are. Further, I have never initiated any dialogue about reservation but have only responded to what you have said. Your constant anti-reservation stance does raise some skepticism. My position also remains the same that let it be the choice of the dalits.

    You assumed from my opinions about Hinduism and the fascist upper caste Indian government was based on frivolous ?educated opinions? well I would have to say the same about yours. Not only yours, but the countless other pro-hindui/hiduism/Indian bloggers. Nowhere have I found (besides on your blog) even one sentence dedicated to the situation of the dalits/minorities.

    You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I have yet to be proven why Thapar is a lousy historian? Again, only people who usually think such things are the same people who not once condemn the current situation of dalits/minorities but their life goal seems to be to hide the ills of the upper caste Hindus/Hinduism.

    My views are not given to me, as I think yours are. I form my own and do not allow my patriotism to shed any light on my views. I think your statement about your media is to say the least exaggerated. During my visits, I have seen your media, how free it is. The Muslims of Gujarat and the Sikhs of Punjab can attest to this as well. Well, when was the last time you saw a TV documentary portraying the evils that dalits have faced? Further, I believe you would be a better critic than me if the international policies of the US were at question. I think outside sources provide a better and more neutral assessments of the ills of ones history and government.

    Ok?India as the fastest growing economy? This is true, but also very false if you thoroughly look at Indian economics. The only places prospering are the ones where International corporations have set up shop. An upper caste Indian can enjoy a pizza today because he is able to take the train or bike to work where he is the mere servant of an International gift to India. Further, there are places in India that are probably at the least 100 year behind, look at Bihar where people eat rats to survive. In any case, at the least 50% percent of India is below the average standard of living. Oh?and I think it was you who said not one technological invention occurred in India, this is very true and further proves that India is able to flaunt its minor economic growth due the companies the US has outsourced because our corporations only care about profit, and Indians will work for the lowest wage.

    Ok?Muslism being prosperous, again who cares? Who cares about the exceptions. Aren?t there prosperous dalits? Does this speak anything of the current situation of dailts? There were prosperous Brahmins and Kashatriyas during all the invasions, as they served as the right hand men of the invaders, while securing their freedom and wealth and causing the rape and enslavement of their own people. That?s why Indian society today is as it is.

    It was never about settling old accounts; I think this is exactly what motivates the fear in the minds of the upper castes that are responsible for pretty much all of the evils of Indian society. They are in a constant stage of fear of what will happen if ? of there population (the dalits) achieve dignity, human rights, economic rights, education? I think this is the greatest fear, because they are very much aware of what they and their ancestors have done to the dalits, and I hope the day comes, as you said, when upper castes will have to bow to a dalit priest. I think this is the greatest method for settling old accounts. Further, why would any accounts be needed to settle with Muslims? they are Indian. I?m sure you would argue that their conversions were forced, well let?s assume that is true so what account do you have to settle with Indians who were historically the victims of outside non-Indian Muslim Invaders ? Again, my statements never tried to even hint settling old accounts but questioned why upper castes are not being shown or discussed as they are or have been. Why are dalits and other minorities not being able gain enough support to combat the evil leaders and regimes of India and the upper castes. Where are the self immolations and protests for the upliftment of dalits? There are still children, widows from 1984 waiting for some compensation for her whole family being slaughtered. People felt sorry for you when you spoke of the sikh man getting burned alive in front of you eyes, but who is going to feel sorry for him, his wife, his kids? You just witnessed a crime, thousands Sikhs were the victims of it. Have you ever seen young sikh kids, young as 4, with their arms chopped off, their hair cut off, and/or burnt alive? Have you seen how young girls in 84, 2002, young as 4-8 were raped in front of their family? Where is the outrage, public support, media? In Punjab, ppl are afraid to ask for freedom and justice, afraid to protest peacefully and in Gujarat they have lost all hope.

    Here, even the whites started to march along with King. Where are such upper castes in India ? Or does your media not cover such things either? Lastly, India is a young nation. Its political history is just as young. You said in a earlier regime that there are few right wing Hindu regimes that are responsible for what has happened in India, I would like to ask you, when was India ever ruled by a decent leader and not by a criminal? For the most part it has been ruled by the gandhis or maybe for a couple of decades or so by the BJP or another party, all of its leaders have some sort of criminal record or known to have commited some human rights violations (in gandhi?s case I guess sleeping with young girls is not a human rights violation?). These same leaders are now seen by hindus as additions to the long list of hindu deities and sages.

    You said… ?Coming back again to Hinduism, I don?t wish to change your views because gradually, it seems they are not your views, but some guided, purposeful opinions, so there is no use going in a cycle.?

    I am the one who provided you with facts about the hindu scriptures, sikh religion and about Gandhi. My views are formed not by knowledge passed on to me by my mother or my spouse or by some upper caste patriots sitting and enjoying a cup of chai and reading The Hindu while a dalit kid cleans his shit. I went to the source. My views are only as misguided as the hindu sciptures.

    Man?I better start diggin my studies instead of writing messages to you lol

  21. Anonymous

    hei zhivago,
    Its not perfect to generalize things although we have good and bad in every society but something about disaffected individuals like you.

    who have lost all the logic to see things improve as they stand otherwise you could not be hearing it.
    As for india and its history through most of its history its been a super power,its worst time started when moguls started invading and of course every country has a bad time.
    The failure of secular institutions “who are run by people like you” is the real cause of the problems as no one has seen one single institution of government doing good.
    i propose you should go on with your life hating blindly everything about india, as it takes several decades for india to improve really as its been plundered for centuries it requires at least one to really improve. as for uppercast stuff you read this

    as for culture of india, many competing faiths flowed as invasions happened, if upper castes discriminated the so called lower castes ‘what were they doing for so many centuries without centuries’ and suddenly hate towards upper castes became more voicy than britishers or muslims who have been continually ruling for centuries. kudos for you thoughts it smells shit


  22. vamsi

    hei zhivago,
    Its not perfect to generalize things although we have good and bad in every society but something about disaffected individuals like you.

    who have lost all the logic to see things improve as they stand otherwise you could not be hearing it.
    As for india and its history through most of its history its been a super power,its worst time started when moguls started invading and of course every country has a bad time.
    The failure of secular institutions “who are run by people like you” is the real cause of the problems as no one has seen one single institution of government doing good.
    i propose you should go on with your life hating blindly everything about india, as it takes several decades for india to improve really as its been plundered for centuries it requires at least one to really improve. as for uppercast stuff you read this

    as for culture of india, many competing faiths flowed as invasions happened, if upper castes discriminated the so called lower castes ‘what were they doing for so many centuries without centuries’ and suddenly hate towards upper castes became more voicy than britishers or muslims who have been continually ruling for centuries. kudos for you thoughts it smells shit


  23. zhivago

    lol…vamsi, i do agree there is no one perfect government, nor did i ignore or mention any good of india/hindu/hinduism because that was not my focus. i can find good in stalin russia if i look hard enough. but besides the point, i think you have not understood the details nor the broder point of my argument, in which i totally agree that you vamsi would be a better judge of my government and i would probably be a better one for yours, especially if you find nothing wrong in your history, religion.

    further, it is easy to blame the muslim invaders for eveything, and overlook who helped them to enter the nation, before them it was other other invaders (history of india is over invasion and conquest who also worked witht the local elites), and before them india was a society dominated by brahmins and kashtriyas who, as they do now, lived off the blood and sweat of the lower castes and untouchables. but i bet you never read the vedas, or bhagwat gita, laws of manu, or any of the other hindu propaganda.

    i think the only thing that smells like shit is your country, literally.

    there is this nice summary of indian/hindu history that i wolud like to share with you by a hindu blogger (i think he is a blogger), i will try to post it on here.

  24. zhivago

    I found this on a blog, interesting, and truthfully simple.

    oh and by the way amrit, i looked at arun shourie, and he is probably one of most fundamentalist RSS component, very popular one as well. so i agree, he wouldnt agree with anyone like thapar.

    vamsi, i don’t hate india, it has great potential, i am just doing my part as a citizen of the world to bring forth injustices, i encourage you do the same for atleat one country. i chose india, you can choose america, only through criticical analysis can we move forward, thats if you want to move forward.

    enjoy the reading.

    Re: – posted by ashwin – 6/5/2006 06:39:04


    Now let us see what is history of meritorious Hinduism.
    Prior to Buddha and Mahavira, in vedic times our Aryan upper caste ppl used to conduct yagya which involved lighting a fire & doing stuti (praise) of various gods like agni.
    Afterwards they used to do sacrifice ( give BALI) of animals such as horse, goat and COW .
    The meat of sacrificed animals was distributed as prasad.
    In other words cow slaughter was considered good & auspicious by so called upper caste meritorious , educated, aryan religious people.
    In some yagya MANAV BALI was also practiced . Dont know what they did with the meat. This practice exists even today in tantric witchcraft clandestinely.

    So we can say that , that time was like African tribal system of cannibalism practiced by our so called forward upper caste Aryans.

    Buddha & Mahavira strongly objected to BALI and professed non violence to all life forms.
    In fact , for the very first time Buddha said ?

    Stop cow slaughter
    Cow give us milk , butter and ghee
    Cow is a very gentle animal
    Cow is like a mother , Gau Mata

    Buddha influenced kings of those times to completely eradicate cow slaughter. Buddha is the first Gau rakshak.

    Buddha was considered as a guru of all gods and brahma at that time.
    His teaching are known as Dharma Sutra (tipitak) which were very much detailed on what is right & wrong & how to meditate & attain moksha.
    Buddha never hated low caste. He said he wanted progress of all castes.
    His chief deciples were brahmin, kshatria, vaishya & ALSO SHUDRA.
    Many shudras became arihant ( the highest title)

    Chandragupta Maurya & his gradson king Ashoka were from shudra (surprising)
    So India was ruled by shudras in buddhist period.
    Alexander from Greece (europe) invaded india & defeated upper caste king Porus in north west.
    Chandragupta Maurya fought Alexander and made him & his army to leave india who died in Iran from a wound he received in india.
    So shudras were capable of defeating europians.
    His grandson Ashoka (also shudra) expanded the indian empire from Afghanistan to Burma. India never was so large in areal extent in the entire history till date. Also at that time india was the richest ( thats why Alexander came). Indians were trading all over the world.
    We can say that India was like present day america at that time of shudra rulers. Ashoka was instrumental in spread of Buddhism to far eastern countries.
    Look in & around your house. Observe how many things are from Japan, Korea, China, Thailand , Taiwan Buddhist countries. These are gifts from Buddha. That way even Delhi metro is a gift from Buddha as it is aided by Japan & built by Korean expertise.

    All this progress happened because Buddha & Mahavira injected a new moral sense into indian social system which opposed the age old brahmins system of considering brahmin as a god for the purpose of making him rich in the process. We can say that india was shining in golden age of Buddhism.

    Of course the Aryan upper caste were worried for the fear of being marginalized like today.
    And they conspired. After 500 years of buddha, Patanjali(a brahmin) became Maha purohit (chief priest) of King Pushya mitra shung(a Brahmin king). Patanjali (father of hindu yoga) plagiarized / stole the intellectual knowledge of buddhism and created his own Patanjal Yog Sutra. It is 75% buddhist.

    Pushya mitra shung was commander in chief of last Mauryan king Brhadrata. Pushya mitra Shung(Brahmin) killed Brhadrata while he was inspecting guard of honor & took over the throne (185 BC). Pushya mitra Shung(Brahmin) hated Buddhists so much that he slaughtered them en masse. He set a prize of 100 gold coins on every dead Buddhist monk?s head. He destroyed 84000 buddhist stupas built by Ashoka. This is the true spirit of Brahmins. They are given important positions thru merit. Later on they act like devils. Beware.

    After that many other hindu texts were written promoting superstition. After that the hindu kings started ignoring buddhism. Brahmins on one side and buddhist/ Jains on other side were opposed to each other intellectually.

    Brahmins got the chiefs of buddhists & jains killed later on. That was the time Adi Shankara existed. There was so much massacre of Buddhists & Jains that their bodies were taken away in many carts. Buddhists & Jains practiced ahinsa (non violence) , so they were eliminated.
    Brahmins collected all the manuscripts and teachings of buddhists & jains and it was burnt in fire.
    While hindus today consider muslim rule of moguls as barbaric, bloody & oppressive , they ignore the fact about what they did to Buddhists & Jains.
    Original Buddhist teachings were completely eliminated from india and it is simply not available anywhere even today. Later on Jains adopted a trick , they took hindu literature , eliminated hindu teachings and inserted Jain teachings and called it Jain literature. Due to this trick hindus accepted Jainism as part of Hinduism as it exits today.

    Between 0 AD to 500 AD most of the hindu literature like sankhya, upanishad, vedanta was written. It is suspected that these were nothing but condensed teachings of buddha which conspiring brahmins changed it to suite their purpose. And since Buddhist knowledge was eliminated , common man had no choice to compare it. They even adopted Buddhist practices such as vegetarianism, respecting cow as mother, shaving the head etc. because these were accepted already by masses.

    Another brahmin , Vatsayana wrote Kama Sutra praising sex which is in opposition to Buddha. According to Buddha brahmacharya (celibacy/ control on sexual behavior) was the very first step towards good morality and a door to higher learning. Kama sutra is one of the most popular book at the global scale, today.


    The result of upper caste aryan rule after buddhism was worship of brahmins and idols, unlimited superstitions and spread of fear of mantra, tantra by brahmins, untouchability, sati, making widows life miserable, in benaras poor widows were even used as as prostitutes.
    What is the proof? Go to Khajuraho temple in MP. Go to Konark sun temple in orissa near puri. The xxx postures of idols in temple represent deterioration of hindu morality. Aaj Tak TV channel showed shameful sexual acts of pandas in swaminarayan temple.
    Brahmins were exempted from any sin. In other words Brahmin cannot sin, so even if he rapes or kills or does anything he commits no sin. The present day statistics will tell you that worst criminals are from upper caste.


    The hindu dark age made Indians morally, intellectually weak since it was based on andh vishwas, idol worship & upper caste Aryans were busy reaping a windfall of wealth by exploiting working class. The temples were full of gold ? it was the poor mans sweat & blood. At the same times a new religion islam spread. Its powerful invaders pounced upon morally weak Indians. When Mohammed bin Kasim attacked sindh, its Brahmin king was busy in a tantric yagya to kill the enemy. The yagya did nothing & the king lost his head & his kingdom. The same superstitious attitude prevailed all over India who believed that tantra mantra can do everything. Slowly islam spread. Many low caste & backward people adopted it as it offered equal social status. So one of the reason of conversion was tyranny of upper caste Hinduism. Even Kashmir problem was created in this period , its king was a Buddhist who wanted to convert to Hinduism. But the kashmiri pundits objected , the king became angry & he converted to Islam and made his kashmiri people to convert too.

    Later on British came. There was mutiny of 1857 which failed because many rulers like Scindhias (Brahmins) of Gwalior helped british. Jhansi ki Rani Laxmibai fought british. She left Jhansi on horseback with her adopted infant son tied to her back. Schindias of gwalior deceived her. They closed the gates of their fort. Laxmibai fought bravely but was cut down to pieces finally being left alone. Today same schindias descendents are enjoying power. Why? They are meritorious upper caste hindu Brahmins. It is said that hindu mahasabha was favoring british. The same has converted to Jansangh & its other hindu offshoots(VHP RSS BJP). Their aim is to see that upper caste Aryan hindus (preferably Brahmin) always remain in power along with the control on country?s wealth & resources.

    Killings of indo-pak partition were due to rigidity & unsociability practiced by upper caste Aryans on muslims & low caste people. Conversion happened due to this only, as it is stated earlier. Another Brahmin , Nehru messed up so much that Kashmir was torn into three pieces like a cat is caught between teeth of many dogs. Kashmir problem is a creation of upper caste, meritorious, educated , aryan , religious HINDUS. Gandhi was truly righteous but he made one mistake. He made a Brahmin (Nehru) a PM instead of Jinnah because Nehru was adamant. And who was Nehru , a son of a very rich man whose garments used to be washed in Paris. A person who used to go to Europe for holidaying. If Jinnah had become PM ,at least India would have remained united. Therefore bloodshed in time of partition is a creation of selfish upper caste, meritorious, educated , aryan , religious HINDUS. Nehru simply started a dynastic rule. Nehru was opposed to reservations & Ambedkar. He even said ? ?We have ensured that Brahmin should rule this country forever?. He & his daughter Indira distributed FREE land to Brahmins for public schools which are meant for education of elite upper caste today.

    In Indo Pak war of 1971 the defense minister was babu Jagjivan Ram, a dalit. And the army mostly (88%) comprises of SC/ST/OBC & muslims. Is it not an achievement by low castes.
    Policies of Indira Gandhi could have created another partition in 84. She made Brahmins & Upper castes mostly as chief ministers such as Kamla pati Tripathi. There was very little industrial progress in her time. Indira Gandhi(Brahmin) & later her son Rajiv started borrowing huge international aid for funding govt. schemes. By earlier 90?s , the economy became very poor & on the verge of collapse due to the meritorious , upper caste , Brahmins rule. India was on the verge of debt trap( i.e. borrowing for the sake of paying). It was Dr.Manmohan Singh ( a non Brahmin ) who created an about turn in economy which is an tremendous achievement of a non hindu.

    BJP won on the issue of nationalism. It?s a pro hindu party. They sowed the seeds of another partition & hindu muslim separation by demolishing Babri mosque. Their govt in Gujrat killed 2000 ? 3000 people on false pretext. Their skeletons are still being found. BJP started selling assets of country in the name of sick companies divestment. Instead they hurriedly sold off best & highly profitable companies such as VSNL at low price. These companies will be eventually be bought by multinationals. This is meritorious , upper caste hindu rule.

    Pakistan is a consequence of this rigid hindu exploitative attitude only. Considering that earlier only SC/ST/OBC people became muslims , Pakistan maybe considered as a country of converted dalits & backwards.They have 6% reservation for scheduled caste. Today Pakistan is progressive. There may be issues of disagreements between India & Pak , but their origins lie in vote bank politics/ power on both sides. The politicians today are very keen on developing good understanding between two because peace means progress. Today Pakis have satellite launching capability, nuclear arms , what not. Are not these dalit achievements ? Whereas in India we have people who eat rats for survival in bihar. Because thousands of crores of money released by govt. for welfare of SC/ST etc. ends up in wrong hands thru corruption by upper caste hindu politicians & bureaucrats for the purpose of filling pockets of parties & also theirs. And may be going out to swiss a/c for funding elections. How it happens is very organized, schemes are created, run and completed on paper only. False receipts are generated. Ask the govt & they will show statistics having details of grand achievements in welfare. Earlier PM Rajiv Gandhi himself admitted that only 10% money reaches the needy & poor. And the poor remains poor. The ruling upper class has maintained a vulture like attitude as always. If there is a disaster (earthquake, displacement by big dams, typhoons, tsunami , disease, poison gas tragedy etc.) , the upper caste politicians & bureaucrats become very happy & get themselves involved in it. Why? the aid will be cornered to fill their pockets thru corruption / false receipts. The most visible sign of such corruption is very poor condition of roads in the interiors of India considering that huge funds are available to state govts. So much that they are not even able to spend them. Some people say that SC/ST people are also in power & bureaucracy. But they don?t know that such people are always given unimportant positions, ignored & kept in postings of trivial matters.

    In rural areas couples are killed by village authorities (panchayats) just for love & marriage between low & high caste.
    In Haryana 5 dalits were killed just because they were transporting naturally died cows 5 years back.
    The low caste people attending colleges are deliberately given low grades/marks by including their failure grades in averaging since their identities are known.. Example : a student gets A grade in 3rd attempt so gets fail(0) fail(0) A grade(100) => (0 0 100)/3 = 33% marks only while possessing A grade knowledge (IITs etc). Similarly in PG entrance in AIIMS , upper caste students get admission with low marks compared to low caste students due to monopoly & politics. Low castes are hardly given entrance to MD, only diploma is given. Gold medals in nearly all the medical colleges are politically influenced & given by college management to politically linked students.

    R.K.Sharma (Brahmin) IG , haryana(police chief) killed Shivani bhatnager by his own hands by telephone wire, & is in jail.
    R.Sharma(Brahmin) police chief(Maharastra) shifted old printing blocks as scrap & ink also to print fake currency & stamp papers as good as original. Total worth more than 3000 CRORE.
    One Brahmin Police IG, Orissa , sexually abused a poor tribal girl & shown on TV also using hidden camera in 2005.
    One Sharma , a serial killer , killed many girls & had sex with their dead bodies later ( reported on TV on 28 may 06)
    Manu Sharma (grand son of Shanker dayal Sharma ) killed Jessica Lal in a pub just for a drink.
    Dr. Saptarishi Dey in Calcutta sexually exploited his patients in the name of rehabilitation.25 May 06.
    Amarmani tripathi ex,minister UP, conspired to kill Madhumita , ex lover.

    Manu smiriti was also written in the hindu dark age after Buddhism which says that if a shudra listens to even a single word of Vedas , molten lead should be poured into his ears. In other words education was made a monopoly of aryan upper caste which exists even today in the form of public schools. In those times Sanskrit was used as a medium to monopolize education because it was a difficult language. Its interpretation was given only by Brahmins so whatever they said u have to believe it. For example every translation of Gita in Hindi is different.

    Today English is used for monopolizing education. All higher education is in English. Most low caste & backward people study in government school which teach in hindi/local language in the name of matra bhasha (Mother tongue). In UP even BSc is taught in hindi. When such students take exams of engineering , medical , IIM etc. they r always at the bottom. Mother tongue should be respected & taught at small scale. But not in this manner of making poor SC/ST/OBC people intellectually handicap. The public schools (actually private) interview the students and their parents. Parents have to fill a form which requires them to reveal their economic & social status, links with politicians & bureaucrats. In other words schools want to know their caste for the purpose of filtering them out. This is Upper Caste Aryan Hindu Apartheid rule even today in the form of so called merit. We deplore it. This is Goondaism.

    The Ashok Chakra in Indian flag is Buddhist sign it represents a great meritorious rule by a shudra king Ashoka which established after defeating europians (Alexander) which spanned from Afghanistan to Burma.


    Come out from the darkness of Hindu exploitation who will dump u when u r in need.


    Buddham Sharnam Gacchami
    Dhammam Sharnam Gacchami
    Sangham Sharnam Gacchami

    Extracts from the Manusmriti

    The great sages approached Manu, who was seated with a collected mind, and, having duly worshipped him, spoke as follows:
    Divine one, to declare to us precisely and in due order the sacred laws of each of the [four] castes [varnas] and of the intermediate ones.

    For the sake of the prosperity of the worlds he [Brahma] caused the Brahmin, the Kshatriya, the Vaisya and the Shudra to proceed forth from his mouth, his arms, his thighs and his feet. But in order to protect this universe, He, the most resplendent one[Brahma], assigned separate [duties and] occupations to those who sprang from his mouth, arms, thighs and feet.
    To Brahmins he assigned teaching and studying [the Veda], sacrificing for their own benefit and for others, giving and accepting [of alms].
    The Kshatriya he commanded to protect the people, to bestow gifts, to offer sacrifices, to study [the Veda], and to abstain from attaching himself to sensual pleasures.
    The Vaisya to tend cattle, to bestow gifts, to offer sacrifices, to study [the Veda], to trade, to lend money, and to cultivate land.
    One occupation only the lord prescribed to the Shudra, to serve meekly even these [other] three castes.
    The Brahmin, Kshatriya and the Vaishya castes are the twice-born ones, but the fourth, the Shudra, has one birth only.
    On account of his preeminence, on account of the superiority of his origin, on account of his observance of restrictive rules and on account of his particular sanctification, the Brahmin is the lord of [all] castes.
    Let the three twice-born castes, discharging their [prescribed] duties, study [the Veda], but among them the Brahmin [alone] shall teach it, not the other two; that is an established rule.
    As the Brahmin sprang from [Brahman?s] mouth, as he was the first-born, and as he possesses the Veda, he is by right the lord of this whole creation. A Brahmin, coming into existence, is born the highest on earth, the lord of all created beings, for the protection of the treasury of the law. Whatever exists in the world is the property of the Brahmin. On account of the excellence of his origin the Brahmin is, indeed, entitled to all.
    Whatever law has been ordained for any [person] by Manu, that has been fully declared in the Veda, for that [sage was] omniscient.
    Knowledge is the austerity of the Brahmin, protecting is the austerity of the Kshatriya, his daily business is the austerity of the Vaisya, and service [of the ?upper? castes] the austerity of a Shudra.
    Let [the first part of] a Brahmin?s name [denote something] auspicious, a Kshatriya?s be connected with power, and a Vaisya?s with wealth, but a Shudra?s [express something] contemptible. [The second part of] a Brahmin?s [name] shall be [a word] implying happiness, of a Kshatriya?s [a word] implying protection, of a Vaisya?s [a term] expressive of thriving, and of a Shudra?s [an expression] denoting service.
    Kshatriyas prosper not without Brahmins [and] Brahmins prosper not without Kshatriyas. Brahmins and Kshatriyas, being closely united, prosper in this [world] and in the next. But to serve Brahmins [who are] learned in the Vedas, householders and famous [for virtue] is the highest duty of a Shudra, which leads to beatitude. [A Shudra who is] pure, the servant of his betters, gentle in speech and free from pride and always seeks refuge with Brahmins, attains [in his next life] a higher caste.
    The whole world is kept in order by punishment . [So] let him [the king] act with justice in his own domains, chastise his enemies, behave without duplicity towards his friends, and be lenient towards the Brahmins. The king has been created [to be] the protector of the castes and orders, who, all according to their rank, discharge their several duties. Let the king, after rising early in the morning, worship the Brahmins who are well-versed in the three-fold sacred science and learned and follow their advice . Though dying [with want] a king must not levy a tax on Srotriyas (priests) and no Srotriya residing in his kingdom must perish from hunger.
    A king, desirous of investigating law cases, must enter his court of justice, preserving a dignified demeanor, together with Brahmins and with experienced councilors . A Brahmin who subsists only by the name of his caste or one who merely calls himself a Brahmin may, at the king?s pleasure, interpret the law to him, but never a Shudra. The kingdom of that monarch who looks on while a Shudra settles the law will sink [low] like a cow in a morass. That kingdom where Shudras are very numerous, which is infested by atheists and destitute of twice-born (?upper? caste) [inhabitants], soon entirely perishes, afflicted by famine and disease.
    [The king] should carefully compel Vaisyas and Shudras to perform the work [prescribed] for them; for if these two [castes] swerved from their duties, they would throw this [whole] world into confusion.
    A Kshatriya, having defamed a Brahmin, shall be fined one hundred [panas]; a Vaisya one hundred and fifty or two hundred; a Shudra shall suffer corporal punishment.
    A once-born man (Shudra) who insults a twice-born (?upper? caste) man with gross invective, shall have his tongue cut out, for he is of low origin. If he mentions the names and castes of the [?twice-born?] with contempt, an iron nail, ten fingers long, shall be thrust red-hot into his mouth. If he [a Shudra] arrogantly teaches Brahmins their duty, the king shall cause hot oil to be poured into his mouth and into his ears.
    A low-caste man who tries to place himself on the same seat with a man of high caste shall be branded on his hip and be banished, or [the king] shall cause his buttock to be gashed. (Any form of punishment for this ?crime?).
    If out of arrogance he [a Shudra] spits [on a superior] the king shall cause both his lips to be cut off.
    If he [a Shudra] lays hold of the hair [of a superior] let the [king] unhesitatingly cut off his hands.
    He who strikes [a Brahmin] even with a blade of grass . shall appease him by a prostration. But he who, intending to hurt a Brahmin, threatens [him with a stick and the like] shall remain in hell for a hundred years; he who [actually] strikes him [shall remain in hell] for a thousand years.
    A Chandala (the ?lowest? caste), a village pig, a cock, a dog, a menstruating women and a eunuch must not look at the Brahmins when they eat.
    Let him [a Brahmin] not dwell in a country where the rulers are Shudras . nor in one swarming with men of the lowest caste . Let him not give advice to a Shudra . for he who explains the sacred law [to a Shudra] or dictates him to a penance will sink together with that [man] into the hell [called] Asamvrita. Let him not recite [the Vedas] indistinctly, nor in the presence of Shudras .
    When he [a Brahmin] has touched a Chandala, a menstruating woman, an outcast, a woman in childbed, a corpse or one who has touched [a corpse], he becomes pure by bathing . Let him not allow a dead Brahmin to be carried out by a Shudra while men of the same caste are at hand, for that burnt offering which is defiled by a Shudra?s touch is detrimental to [the deceased?s passage to] heaven.
    A Brahmin who unintentionally approaches a woman of the Chandala or of [any other] very low caste, who eats [the food of such persons] and accepts [gifts from them] becomes an outcast, but [if he does it] intentionally he becomes their equal.
    The dwellings of Chandalas and Svapakas [people of very ?low? caste] shall be outside the village and their wealth [shall be] dogs and donkeys. Their dress [shall be] the garments of the dead, [they shall eat] their food from broken dishes, black iron [shall be] their ornaments, and they must always wander from place to place . At night they shall not walk about in villages and in towns. By day they may go about for the purpose of their work, distinguished by marks at the king?s command, and they shall carry out the corpses [of persons] who have no relatives-that is a settled rule.
    A man of low caste, who, through covetousness, lives by the occupations of a higher one, the king shall deprive of his property and banish. It is better to [discharge] one?s own [appointed caste] duty incompletely than to perform completely that of another; for he who lives according to the law of another [caste] is instantly excluded from his own . Let a [Shudra] serve Brahmins, either for the sake of heaven or with a view to both [this life and the next], for he who is called the servant of a Brahmin thereby gains all his ends. The service of Brahmins alone is declared [to be] an excellent occupation for a Shudra, for whatever else besides this he may perform will bear him no fruit.
    No collection of wealth must be made a Shudra, even though he be able [to do it], for a Shudra who has acquired wealth gives pain to Brahmins.
    He who has associated with outcasts, he who has approached the wives of other men and he who has stolen the property of a Brahmin becomes [after death] a brahmarakshas [fierce devil].
    It is declared that a Shudra woman alone [can be] the wife of a Shudra, she and one of his own caste [the wives] of a Vaishya, those two and one of his own caste [the wives] of a Kshatriya, those three and one of his own caste [the wives] of a Brahmin . Twice-born (?upper? caste) men, who, in their folly, wed wives of the low [Shudra] caste soon degrade their families and their children to the state of Shudras. According to Atri and to [Gautama] the son of Uthaya, he who weds a Shudra woman becomes an outcast . A Brahmin who takes a Shudra wife to his bed will [after death] sink into hell; if he begets a child by her he will lose the rank of a Brahmin.
    A [man of ] low [caste] who makes love to a maiden [of] the highest [caste] shall suffer corporal punishment.
    The property of a Brahmin must never be taken by the king, that is a settled rule; but [the property of men] of other castes the king may take on failure of all [heirs].
    Let the king corporally punish all those [persons] who either gamble and bet or afford [an opportunity for it], likewise Shudras who assume the distinctive marks of twice-born [men].
    Never slay a Brahmin, though he [may] have committed all [possible] crimes . No greater crime is known on earth than slaying a Brahmin. A king, therefore, must not even conceive in his mind the thought of killing a Brahmin.
    A Brahmin, be he ignorant or learned, is a great divinity, just as the fire, whether carried forth [for the performance of a sacrifice] or not carried forth, is a great divinity. Thus, though Brahmins employ themselves in all [sorts of] mean occupations they must be honoured in every way, for [each of] them is a very great deity.
    [The king] should order a Vaisya to trade, to lend money, to cultivate the land or to tend cattle, and a Shudra to serve the twice-born castes . A Brahmin who, because he is powerful, out of greed makes initiated [men of the] twice-born [castes] against their will to do the work of slaves, shall be fined by the king six hundred [panas]. But a Shudra, whether bought or not bought, he may compel to do servile work, for he was created by the Self-Existent (swayambhu) to be the slave of a Brahmin. A Shudra, though emancipated by his master, is not released from servitude; since that is innate in him, who can set him free?
    A Brahmin may confidently seize the goods of [his] Shudra [slave], for, as that [slave] can have no property, his master may take his possessions . That sinful man, who, through covetousness, seizes the property of the gods or the property of Brahmins feeds in another world on the leavings of vultures. The Brahmin is declared [to be] the creator [of the world], the punisher, the teacher [and hence] a benefactor [of all created beings], to him let no man say anything unpropitious nor use any harsh worlds.

  25. Amrit Post author

    Zhivago, thanks for posting this…I couldn’t read the whole text…will do so later on. Many of the facts are distorted and nonsensical, but I agree with the overall gist of the piece.

    As it happens with every “uneducated” argument, you resort to lies when you are not sure of what you are saying. Take for instance the comparison of India and Pakistan. Only an insane person would claim that Pakistan is more progressive than India. I agree that Hinduism has its evils and I also agree that Budhism has its strengths and I also believe that it was the ancient infighting that lead to various invasions by all and sundry, but the writer conveniently looks over many facts just to validate his frustrated diatribe against everything Indian (thankfully he called Gandhi ‘righteous’!). Although such balderdash can and should be ignored, it is frustrating how they can influence impressionable minds, and that is why people who can express shouldn’t remain as mute spectators.

    Anyway, agree or not agree, every kind of reading is an education. At least it tells you to what people are thinking around you.

  26. zhivago

    Hey Amrit,

    Thanks for taking the time to read it. Again, it is about the gist of things and not the details. If details were a concern, I would have not posted that piece at all, as you are well aware of my opinion on Ghandi.

    Also the details you chose to focus on should have been of no concern to you, as they were not to me, because I firmly believe no argument is truly ever perfect. Perhaps you have exhausted your limits and have resorted to questioning my intellect.

    Further, I feel texts like these represent not only the mindset of the “educated” Dalits, but also will represent the mindset of the future.

    This text is probably more accurate than the text books you were educated with.

    I agree for most feeble-minded individuals, they become what they hear or read. That’s why we have various Hindutva supporters in small and larger scales. As I said in an earlier piece, if Arun Shourie is the kind of author you seek out to find the “truth”, then I can understand where you’re coming from.

    I think I have stated the truth enough. The only response I have received in return, is questioning of minor details and personal attacks.

    Nevertheless, you are Indian so I must excuse it.

    But I have been grateful that you didn’t resort to personal attacks at an earlier stage, than I would have normally expected.


    At the least, I hope I can be given some credit for helping you realize that Guru Nanak was not a Sufi saint.

  27. zhivago

    oh i should have also added, that if that point on the pregress of Pakistan is of dispute to you, then I think you have once again not read carefully. The author was explaing that Pakistan, is a nation of formerly lower caste/untouchables who converted/forced to covert to Islam. So I think he is saying that a whole nation is ahead in relation to India in that it is being run by former dalits or lowercastes, countering the long held beliefs about their karama, inablity, intelligence or whatever.

    further, this article was not necessarly only for you but for the upper castes who visit your blog.

    hope you enjoyed the last bit of abut the manu laws.

  28. Alka

    I don’t know what purpose these arguments are serving? This person, who even doesn’t have the guts to use his own name is putting forth all kinds of “logic” to paint a gory and black picture of India. And he is very quick to labelling those as “nazis” “fasists” who don’t agree with him. He doesn’t possess any knowledge about anything and its amply evident from his comments. He doesn’t even know the “H” of Hinduism. But claims to know it from source :-). And it won’t take much effort on his part to say that India smells like s***.

    Dear Anon, if we had treated lower caste THAT bad, they were not in majority in THIS country, but had been annihilated like natives of US of A. Today where are those natives? CAN YOU TELL? HOW MUCH ARE THEY CONTRIBUTING TO US OF A? But no, NOW YOU WILL WRITE THAT IS IRRELEVENT TO MY ARGUMENT. 🙂

    We are very much aware of the ills of our country by the upper caste BRAHMINS and few are trying to improve the situation. So please thank you for your valuable time.gO AND MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS INSTEAD OF “EDUCATING” US. Its you who need “proper education”. Start from sagun and nirgun brahma or sakar and nirankar brahma.I can tell you the sources if you want. OK? And don’t google it and write again your half baked ideas here.

  29. Alka

    i agree with you the world is not threatened by hinduism as by fundamentalist islam, this is because the leader/scholars of hinduism who are mostly upper caste are too busy hiding the ills of their religion/socitey. and i dont think hinduism was or every will be morally competant enough to unite itself, and thus becoming an internationl threat is out of the question.
    WOW!What a fantastic REASON.I hope RSS AND Bajrang Dal can read this. I am glad THAT WE ARE MORALLY INCOMPETANT.

  30. Alka

    zhivago ji and that esteemed Indian Hindu bloggerji,
    WAS there any relation between Chandragupta Maurya, (the first Samrat and empire builder of India and a Dalit) and Kautilya or Chanakya? What happened when Chandragupta abdicated?

  31. zhivago

    Alka, all i can say to you girl is that your simply on crack…and a very cheap indian kind

    u make no sense, you try to use your arguments as if your talking in hindi. i will not spend any of my precious time arguing with a no-brainer like yourself. and having said that…i hope your spouse doensnt come to your rescue as he often does, even in your own blog. but i have enjoyed exchanging ideas with him.

    you are simply out of it..you are comparing native americans to dalits??? lol please dude…start using that brain. it is african americans that dalits can be compared to, as dalits were part of or excluded from a hindus caste system. and there were genocides, if u try to see things from the dalits perspective, but if you kill all of them off, who would clean your shit?

    dude..your sarcasm is sooooo indian…its cheap/and over excited. lol

    ok well i have a big exam to cram for, and alka, i much prefer amrit, maybe its the “Sikh” in him that gives him some sense and objectivity towards hinduism?


  32. Alka

    Yes, as you have said it, PLEASE go and CRAM. THAT is what you are good for. 🙂 Obviously I can not stoop to your level calling you names and on what you are ON. 🙂

    And yes, my English is not good. Because its not my language.

    It seems you are wasting enough time on a no brainer 🙂 IF you are reading EVEN comments on my blog. :-)And thinking about who is defending me. 🙂

  33. zhivago

    ok alka, i am cramming…and thats what im good for? i guess i would have to look to you to ask for my position in this world, since your a hindu and all. hahahah that was good one.

    your blog actually had a few interesting points, i think you lose that “trick” when u come here to comment. and there is nothing much wrong with your english, much better than lots of my friends in the states. its just gets a little weird when attemp sarcasm.

    wasnt “thinking” who was defending you…it was obvious.

    back to studying, maybe in the next life i will be a twice born and not have to cram. hahah that was funny man im good (with the jokes)

    we wouldnt even be exchanging such messages if you had, as i said before, slightly, expressed some concern for the bigger argument i presented.

  34. Alka

    Why does anyone has to twice born to not to cram? :-)If I have to write my personal opinion, lower castes are the greatest Hindues ever on this earth. They are humiliated,degraded and what not by their own people, but still they have not left hinduism. No one can claim to be a better Hindu than them. In fact I will write this on my blog. Its brewing in my head for many years. I know many such people who are well off and well settled but still remained in the fold of Hinduism. Many years ago I HAVE READ in “Maya” a political magazine that in Bihar a harizan was appointed as a priest in a temple. I showed this news to my servant. His joy knew no bounds. :-)I was happy looking at his face.

  35. zhivago

    great alka…i always felt the same myself about lower caste hindus, and im glad you also see what makes them so great..i just think they are a strong people. also i think they should be able to know what their religion really says about their position in life, meaning all hindus should learn their scriptures and become critical thinkers of their faith, only then can they know if they agree or not agree with ALL of the ideolgies.

    as far as not leaving their religion, i think historically they had no choice, and now they are actaully coverting in large numbers, again, i think this wouldn’t be the case if they at the least at equal ground among their fellow citizens.

    glad that our dialogue possibly, mayby inspired you to right something about them, i hope you and others will take it further in this cyber world, to do what amrit has done somewhat, demand justice and equality for them. i think they need that more than appreciation for being great hindus, i think they rather be respected as human beings before anything.

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